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every time we see a guy question grover norquist's power, they call up and apologize. what is it about going back to the alter every time if they don't matter, that particular man has to be apologized to. >> i don't think -- >> why did saxby do it? >> i think -- >> he's worried about -- >> i think what saxby is trying to do, the hard work he's trying to do, and grover knows, and everyone knows these taxes are automatically going up. some point in time -- >> it's december 3rd. ready? he got to get this done by december 31st under ideal circumstances. what is grover's role going to be the next three weeks? >> i think he's going to continue to be the guy against taxes. he's not going to change at all. >> if we don't have any taxes on the deal, there won't be a deal. the democrats -- >> there is no deal. the white house people have told me again and again that the president doesn't want to go over the cliff. he'd rather cut a deal -- >> let's talk about the taxes. >> but he's willing to on the tax deal. >> to get the taxes up on the rich. >> let me say -- >> finish this po
every time we see a guy question grover norquist's power, they call up and apologize. what is it about going back to the alter every time if they don't matter, that particular man has to be apologized to. >> i don't think -- >> why did saxby do it? >> i think -- >> he's worried about -- >> i think what saxby is trying to do, the hard work he's trying to do, and grover knows, and everyone knows these taxes are automatically going up. some point in time -- >>...
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think of grover norquist and the influence he has. i don't like grover norquist. i don't like jim demint, but that's what i think he's thinking. >> john, i want to go to the house of representatives. it looks like some real purging going on over there. we have a number of right wing members of the house who have been knocked off their committees. speaker boehner is exerting control. look at four republican members who were recently kicked off their committees, justin amash, huelskamp, david schweikert, and walter jones were booted from the house financial services committee. all four of these men have a history of voting against boehner and the house republican leadership. it looks like they have one thing in common, he's too right for boehner. >> i think the real problem for boehner is he's playing a risky game in the sense that people are starting to whisper that in these negotiations he actually is not being tough enough, that he should be out there saying that this president is addicted to spending. he needs an intervention, and this is the fight right now. in
think of grover norquist and the influence he has. i don't like grover norquist. i don't like jim demint, but that's what i think he's thinking. >> john, i want to go to the house of representatives. it looks like some real purging going on over there. we have a number of right wing members of the house who have been knocked off their committees. speaker boehner is exerting control. look at four republican members who were recently kicked off their committees, justin amash, huelskamp,...
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grover norquist, persona non grata. karl rove, completely unwelcomed in many corners in which he was star in the sun king. i think as people are feeling that, you're sensing that they really need to rethink in both short term and long term what kind of a republican party can they be? >> okay. donna gentile-o'donnell and michael eric dyson. professor, great to have you with us tonight. >>> there's a lot more coming up in the next half hour of "the ed show." stay tuned. >> we're not going to implement obama care in florida. >> we're going to continue to push back on washington, d.c. >> add new jersey and south dakota to the list of states where republican governors are still fighting obama care. i'll ask howard dean what this means for the people. >>> i know you are, but what am i? >> america's zaniest congressman takes a stand on a cause close to his heart. >> we shouldn't eliminate the word lunatic. it really has application around this town. >>> and apple's ceo breaks big news to brian williams on "rock center." >> we'
grover norquist, persona non grata. karl rove, completely unwelcomed in many corners in which he was star in the sun king. i think as people are feeling that, you're sensing that they really need to rethink in both short term and long term what kind of a republican party can they be? >> okay. donna gentile-o'donnell and michael eric dyson. professor, great to have you with us tonight. >>> there's a lot more coming up in the next half hour of "the ed show." stay tuned....
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. >> also i've heard from republicans who are ditching grover norquist's no tax pledge? from the office of u.s. congressman gibson in new york, quote, representative gibson signed the pledge in 2010 for the 20th congressional district. congressman gibson doesn't plan to re-sign it for the 19th. as joy reid said yesterday that's like breaking up with someone by changing your phone number. >>> also tonight, the apps way, the smartphone super pac app providing fact-checking. which came out in the love category? thank obama care, pants on fire, and yosemite sam. here it is. >> there's not going to be a part of, again, socializing health care in the state of texas. ♪ >> the ip being what that is will be a board that will tell you, bob, whether your level of productivity in society is worth rereceiving the rash of care as a result of obama care. ♪ i'll be unhappy if i let you go ♪ >> anyway, the ad that got most votes in the failed category was the one called "join our fight to repeal obama care" from consumer pack restore our voice. that's "hard ball" for next. coming u
. >> also i've heard from republicans who are ditching grover norquist's no tax pledge? from the office of u.s. congressman gibson in new york, quote, representative gibson signed the pledge in 2010 for the 20th congressional district. congressman gibson doesn't plan to re-sign it for the 19th. as joy reid said yesterday that's like breaking up with someone by changing your phone number. >>> also tonight, the apps way, the smartphone super pac app providing fact-checking. which...
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. >>> grover norquist is going to join my colleague, alex wagner, and discuss whether the republican plan meets his expectations. that's coming up in the next hour on "now ". >>> made in the usa. iran claiming that they captured a u.s. drone. >>> plus, prince william in and out of the london hospital visiting his wife kate dealing with extreme morning sickness after being diagnosed as pregnant. it's causing a lot of speculation, though, about what is causing this morning sickness. could it be twins? 28 days to go, who would you blame if the nation goes over the fiscal cliff? tweet me @thomasaroberts . also, with dedicated support teams at over 500 branches nationwide. so when you call or visit, you can ask for a name you know. because personal service starts with a real person. [ rodger ] at scottrade, seven dollar trades are just the start. our support teams are nearby, ready to help. it's no wonder so many investors are saying... [ all ] i'm with scottrade. can i still ship a gift in time for christmas? yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] br
. >>> grover norquist is going to join my colleague, alex wagner, and discuss whether the republican plan meets his expectations. that's coming up in the next hour on "now ". >>> made in the usa. iran claiming that they captured a u.s. drone. >>> plus, prince william in and out of the london hospital visiting his wife kate dealing with extreme morning sickness after being diagnosed as pregnant. it's causing a lot of speculation, though, about what is causing...
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but grover norquist is smart on this. even if it's more efficient, that makes it easier to raise taxes. a tax code that gets high enough it's hurting the country because they won't allow real tax reform to support it. >> i totally agree. you end up in a situation where we on the books have a progressive system. even compared to other countries. we pay much less in taxes overall and we have much stingier-defined public goods. the point is that the most successful social welfare states are one where there's this universal pay in. the way we're going with this inequality is talking about means testing, which is a way from a model of universal pay in and benefit. that's sustainable. >> chris hayes, thank you for being here. >>> oneover the coolest things human beings has ever seen celebrates a big birthday. it's sort of a best new moment of geek and it's coming up. comes with some risk, but proven technologies allow natural gas producers to supply affordable, cleaner energy, while protecting our environment. across america, t
but grover norquist is smart on this. even if it's more efficient, that makes it easier to raise taxes. a tax code that gets high enough it's hurting the country because they won't allow real tax reform to support it. >> i totally agree. you end up in a situation where we on the books have a progressive system. even compared to other countries. we pay much less in taxes overall and we have much stingier-defined public goods. the point is that the most successful social welfare states are...
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they do this because they signed a pledge to grover norquist. that's why they're willing to shut down the government. they're not taking an oath to the constitution of the united states but an oath to grover norquist. if you do things like that you shouldn't have the right to try to continue to shut down the government and use the debt ceiling as a weapon. >> finally, congressman, there are reports the president may ask congress for $50 billion for hurricane sandy, you know, to cover costs of relief and rebuilding. do you expect that to even be held hostage as well by region sn -- republicans? >> yes, do i. >> so no agreement on fiscal cliff, no agreement on debt ceiling, no agreement on this either? >> that's because they are obstructionists. they've turned the win into a partisan political instrument. they've turned the weather into a partisan political instrument. we have a solution to thisç 37e have introduced a discharge petition. we think that we shouldn't be holding the middle class hostage. everyone agrees the first $250,000 in income
they do this because they signed a pledge to grover norquist. that's why they're willing to shut down the government. they're not taking an oath to the constitution of the united states but an oath to grover norquist. if you do things like that you shouldn't have the right to try to continue to shut down the government and use the debt ceiling as a weapon. >> finally, congressman, there are reports the president may ask congress for $50 billion for hurricane sandy, you know, to cover...
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if anyone is a monarch of their own sort of political realm, that would be grover norquist. he is unelected. he's looked at as royalty and he's got all of these sort of seve sever serfs who have made their pledge to him. this is a moment when consumer confidence and sort of the retail market finds its sort of zenith of the fiscal year. for people to be concerned about the payroll tax cut and some of these other draconian measures that the republicans have put on the table as part of their new compromise for the fiscal hill or slope or whatever you want to call it seems to me to be where we need to be putting pressure here. we need to have a different conversation at this time of year because it's an important moment for consumption in this country. regardless of where you are on this issue, this is the time when people consume most. a payroll tax cut or increase being on the table in these discussions can dampen some of the opportunities we have to keep our economy going. >> jared, why does speaker boehner persist with the mathematical impossibility that closing loopholes an
if anyone is a monarch of their own sort of political realm, that would be grover norquist. he is unelected. he's looked at as royalty and he's got all of these sort of seve sever serfs who have made their pledge to him. this is a moment when consumer confidence and sort of the retail market finds its sort of zenith of the fiscal year. for people to be concerned about the payroll tax cut and some of these other draconian measures that the republicans have put on the table as part of their new...
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. >>> grover norquist thinks that the tea party will revolt until republicans keep tax rates low on the rich. we'll see if he's right about that. that's next. and later in the show, you're going to meet the last word viewer who impressed me so much with his online comment about the show that he works here now. that's coming up. ♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event. >>> under my plan, first of all, 98% of folks who make less than 250,000, you won't see your income taxes go up a single dime. all right? because you're the ones who need relief. but we're not going to be able to get it done unless we also ask the wealthiest households to pay higher taxes on their income over $250,000. the same rate we had when bill clinton was president and our economy created nearly 23 million new jobs. >> that's from a new video by the obama administration designed to get the public on the president's s
. >>> grover norquist thinks that the tea party will revolt until republicans keep tax rates low on the rich. we'll see if he's right about that. that's next. and later in the show, you're going to meet the last word viewer who impressed me so much with his online comment about the show that he works here now. that's coming up. ♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes and lexus for audi...
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they've got to get through the rocky shoals of grover norquist. >> congresswoman, some democrats are saying that this is not the situation, it's not going to be mano, as we've been saying. what do you know about that in terms of how they are negotiating and is it the best for them to be one on one? >> well, i think it does not hurt for them to be one on one. i have to be concerned about what the leaders are saying about being excluded. but if we take this moment and if this is what they have decided to do, let them go in there and say something to each other, that they feel they cannot say with anyone else in the room and see if that's going to move this forward. i don't think it hurts to have them do one on one for a part of this negotiation. >> and as we get to the negotiations, what is the give and take. if speaker john boehner is, as our political director chuck todd says, ready to eat their own on the tax rate, do you go for 37 instead of 39.5 or 35? on what entitlements do you believe democrats are ready to eat their own? >> well, first of all, on the tax rate, i do think that
they've got to get through the rocky shoals of grover norquist. >> congresswoman, some democrats are saying that this is not the situation, it's not going to be mano, as we've been saying. what do you know about that in terms of how they are negotiating and is it the best for them to be one on one? >> well, i think it does not hurt for them to be one on one. i have to be concerned about what the leaders are saying about being excluded. but if we take this moment and if this is what...
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we've got grover norquist and john boehner and a couple of the bat crap crazies, as you like to call them, holding the rest us hostage. >> they will all vote for this. do we go off the curb or the cliff and do you have to go back when someone asks you, why did not you vote for this on december 5th when you could have done it? why did you wait into january? let the markets crash. take that uncertainty out and cause the stress to the american families. >> i had democratic senators tell me months ago that they were hearing from a couple of republican senators in the cloak room that they actually need us to go off the cliff so they can then cast a vote that is purely interpreted as a tax cut no matter how you look at i. have you heard anything like that from any whispers from the republican side in the house? >> no. no. not in there. and it is strange. i would have thought a month, there is a different reality out there. >> it set in with you. >> it has. i said i've been reasonable to compromise. no, i don't think it has yet. and for me, what is so unfortunate about this. this is what dr
we've got grover norquist and john boehner and a couple of the bat crap crazies, as you like to call them, holding the rest us hostage. >> they will all vote for this. do we go off the curb or the cliff and do you have to go back when someone asks you, why did not you vote for this on december 5th when you could have done it? why did you wait into january? let the markets crash. take that uncertainty out and cause the stress to the american families. >> i had democratic senators...
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grover norquist also an outsider, as you mentioned. clearly that works. the other piece about scott that i think is so interesting, even though as you pointed out, he is not on my cell we are not texting, we are not calling. >> but i would be the first to get up and give credit to a republican party that thought more about how to include minority voices in leadership. it's something they have struggled with. they should do it. and policy is important too there is a whole question around civil rights. i would argue way behind. but representation matters. jay-z famously said on his most recent album, when you see me, see you. politics works the same way. you want success to be shared. you want it to be represented. and i would urge the republicans to think long and hard about how to have a leadership structure that looks more like america. >> you just dropped the mic. i love it. i love it. more from the brain trust on the other side of this break as the supreme court is about to take up same-sex marriage. it is being called a watershed moment in the fight f
grover norquist also an outsider, as you mentioned. clearly that works. the other piece about scott that i think is so interesting, even though as you pointed out, he is not on my cell we are not texting, we are not calling. >> but i would be the first to get up and give credit to a republican party that thought more about how to include minority voices in leadership. it's something they have struggled with. they should do it. and policy is important too there is a whole question around...
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chambliss is open to leaning away from the grover norquist anti-tax pledge. cain says he won't run but there's plenty of time. >> the poll looked at a number of other people against saxby chambliss and they lost to him. it was only herman cain. >> who stood out. >> oh, that would be interesting. >> it will be good headlines for us no doubt. >> indeed, thank you so much. good to see you and of course there will be lots of good little word plays we could use for ashley judd because her husband is a racer. >> exactly. >> just saying. that wraps up this hour of "jansing and company." there was something there, i didn't hit the mark. thomas roberts is next, save me. >> you connected the dots. chris thanks so much. the president all business today in washington, sitting down for a business roundtable, about the fiscal cliff, it's all part of an effort to keep the heat on republicans to cave on tax hikes for the wealthy in order to reach a deal but congressman boehner saying the person the president needs to be talking to is him, and doing so face-to-face, so who is
chambliss is open to leaning away from the grover norquist anti-tax pledge. cain says he won't run but there's plenty of time. >> the poll looked at a number of other people against saxby chambliss and they lost to him. it was only herman cain. >> who stood out. >> oh, that would be interesting. >> it will be good headlines for us no doubt. >> indeed, thank you so much. good to see you and of course there will be lots of good little word plays we could use for...
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. >> perry, this is grover norquist just a few hours ago on "meet the press." take a listen. >> every republican who had impure thoughts about maybe i could raise taxes a little because the other guys will be reasonable have to go back to the drawing board. they've just been told there are no real reforms in this budget. $1.6 trillion in tax increases and in some of the those savings are actually tax increases. >> perry, is speaker boehner's biggest problem going to be pleasing those in his own party who don't want to raise taxes, or getting the other side to cut more entitlements? >> the tax problem is the biggest problem. president obama has laid out in the past and seen willing to me, at least, to make some cuts to medicare. maybe not ones conservatives like. what we don't know yet, the big question is, president obama is pushing for $1 trillion in tax increases, pushing it for a long time. he feels he has a mandate on that now. we know his idea is about raising revenue. we don't know what the republicans ideas are on the revenue. that's what we need to know
. >> perry, this is grover norquist just a few hours ago on "meet the press." take a listen. >> every republican who had impure thoughts about maybe i could raise taxes a little because the other guys will be reasonable have to go back to the drawing board. they've just been told there are no real reforms in this budget. $1.6 trillion in tax increases and in some of the those savings are actually tax increases. >> perry, is speaker boehner's biggest problem going to...
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and we've spent a lot of time talking about grover norquist, another person out of government in the mind of everyone serving in government. and that is a way to make change. >> ryan, we talked about the heritage foundation. and if he is going to be an activist, is heritage the right place to go? senator demint is the one who said if we're able to stop obama on the affordable care act, it will be his waterloo. it will break him. the idea for an individual mandate which is the centerpiece of the affordable care act was birthed at the heritage foundation. >> right. but i think jim demint can kind of shape the heritage foundation to his political will. and the fact that he is able to go to the heritage foundation actually says a lot about where the two parties are on the spectrum. you could never imagine a democratic senator the equivalent of demint. you know, you couldn't imagine somebody like bernie sanders, for instance. you couldn't imagine him going to run the center for progress there is too much daylight between the establishment in washington and the kind of left wing of the dem
and we've spent a lot of time talking about grover norquist, another person out of government in the mind of everyone serving in government. and that is a way to make change. >> ryan, we talked about the heritage foundation. and if he is going to be an activist, is heritage the right place to go? senator demint is the one who said if we're able to stop obama on the affordable care act, it will be his waterloo. it will break him. the idea for an individual mandate which is the centerpiece...
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marco rubio, paul ryan, michele bachmann, john thune and others have sworn allegiance to grover norquist by signing on to the federal taxpayer protection pledge. all thee three of the rising stars are women that doesn't mean they support women's reproductive choices. several would deny the women the right guaranteed to them by roe v. wade. even as the new herd presents your fresh faces, it's array of gender and versatility that we in nerdland will take each of you at face value. but will then move on quickly to ask what are your new ideas? at the table, matt welch is editor in chief of reason. editor in reason of chief magazine and the co-author of declaration of independence. conservative writer tara wall was a senior media adviser for. an associate professor of science at columbia university. a fellow at the roosevelt institute and manuel reyes. thanks for having you here. it's nice to have you. >>> tara, welcome to nerdland. >> how did i know you were coming to me first. >> now i would like you to explain your party. >> lay it all on the table. >> in a certain way, it's so early, i fe
marco rubio, paul ryan, michele bachmann, john thune and others have sworn allegiance to grover norquist by signing on to the federal taxpayer protection pledge. all thee three of the rising stars are women that doesn't mean they support women's reproductive choices. several would deny the women the right guaranteed to them by roe v. wade. even as the new herd presents your fresh faces, it's array of gender and versatility that we in nerdland will take each of you at face value. but will then...
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. >> krystal, it's grover norquist versus the polls, actually, the polls actually tell us -- a new cnn poll shows that 45% of americans would blame congressional republicans if no deal is reached and 34% would blame president obama. i don't think grover is going to turn that around. >> no, i don't think grover is going to turn that around and i don't think that he's right that tea party 2 will dwarf tea party 1. >> he is so wrong. >> but i do think that there is true to the fact that there is already a backlash from the ultra right, grassroot tea partyiers that are still out there upset with boehner over his initial position, which is still quite far to the right, as you and ryan talked about in the last segment, doesn't even include any increase in the top tack rates at all. it still focuses on these magic, you know, reductions of loopholes and deductions that we've never heard anyone from mitt romney or anyone else be able to actually describe. >> let's listen to something that tim geithner said, his description of the republican's problem. >> they are in kind of in a tough position
. >> krystal, it's grover norquist versus the polls, actually, the polls actually tell us -- a new cnn poll shows that 45% of americans would blame congressional republicans if no deal is reached and 34% would blame president obama. i don't think grover is going to turn that around. >> no, i don't think grover is going to turn that around and i don't think that he's right that tea party 2 will dwarf tea party 1. >> he is so wrong. >> but i do think that there is true to...
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norquist. >> they will have to go home and explain to their constituents, many middle class people why they didn't defend them, why they basically put protecting the 2% over protecting the middle class. that is not a position you want to be in at christmas time. >> luke, the democrats will have to give up something, are they not? we know look, the republicans don't have a lot of leverage here, but if they're going to take the debt ceiling off the table, there's got to be something given on medicare and social security? >> if there is to be a big deal, then one would suspect yeah, they would have to. i think there is a group of folks on both sides that realize this is a significant moment where you could actually do something big if you wanted. but the issue seems here, alex, as long as there's no movement on the 250, what really can you do? i'll throw something out there and i think it's interesting you mention tom coburn. because you're starting to see somewhat of a divide between elder senate republicans who have been in d.c., understand how the parlor games operate, as opposed to th
norquist. >> they will have to go home and explain to their constituents, many middle class people why they didn't defend them, why they basically put protecting the 2% over protecting the middle class. that is not a position you want to be in at christmas time. >> luke, the democrats will have to give up something, are they not? we know look, the republicans don't have a lot of leverage here, but if they're going to take the debt ceiling off the table, there's got to be something...
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you've called grover norquist's pledge handcuffs. are all absolute positions handcuffs for a lawmaker? >> you know what, look at what's going on right now. you have one side saying we're not doing any spending cuts. the other side saying we're not doing any tax cuts. raising taxes. it's a stalemate from the get go. again you have to look at what we're trying to accomplish. and the bigger picture is we're looking at $16.2 trillion in debt. and with either plan that we look at, whether it's mr. obama's or what's been reported on the republican side, our national debt will increase anywhere from 7.7 trillion to 9.1 trillion in the next 10 years. and that's added onto the 16.2 trillion. we need to look at the amount of debt that we've incurred. and we need to work at that to reduce that. and again, it goes back to growing an economy. >> all right. well, thank you very much. florida's congressman elect ted yoho. please next time all my alex. >> thank you. >>> in 13 days some believe the world will come to an end. we got to talk about that
you've called grover norquist's pledge handcuffs. are all absolute positions handcuffs for a lawmaker? >> you know what, look at what's going on right now. you have one side saying we're not doing any spending cuts. the other side saying we're not doing any tax cuts. raising taxes. it's a stalemate from the get go. again you have to look at what we're trying to accomplish. and the bigger picture is we're looking at $16.2 trillion in debt. and with either plan that we look at, whether it's...
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bob corker, the republican in the senate said he would break the grover norquist push. he didn't talk about the tax rates. as we all know, the key is the president's and democrats insistence on the rate going up from 35 to 39n't 6%. this week, he was much more specific. he's saying to republicans, hey, cut our losses now and live to fight another day. here he is. >> has a growing group of folks looking at this and realizing we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue. we have one house, that's it. the presidency and the senate in the democrats hands. a lot of people are putting forth a theory. i think it has merit. you go in and give the president the 2% increase that he's talking about. the rate increase on the top 2%. all of a sudden, the shift goes back to entitlements. >> what corker is also saying, what he went on to say is when we hit the debt ceiling next year, in february, then republicans are going to have the leverage then. that's something the president dispu disputed. one problem, bob corker is a senator, he's not in the house of representati
bob corker, the republican in the senate said he would break the grover norquist push. he didn't talk about the tax rates. as we all know, the key is the president's and democrats insistence on the rate going up from 35 to 39n't 6%. this week, he was much more specific. he's saying to republicans, hey, cut our losses now and live to fight another day. here he is. >> has a growing group of folks looking at this and realizing we don't have a lot of cards as it relates to the tax issue. we...
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. >> bob, you, yesterday, shadowed grover norquist for quite some time. you went to the meeting, his wednesday meeting. >> that's right. >> he has all the time with some of the most powerful conservatives in d.c. and across the country attending. what was their attitude about any deal that boehner might have to make? >> it's pretty interesting when you talk to house republicans because they look at boehner from two different perspectives. on one side, boehner went in front of the house conference and he said, i'm not going to back any deal that increases rates. so they feel pretty confident on rates. that's where i think "the new york times" comes from. on rates they think boehner is still with house conservatives. at the same time, there's a lot of raised eyebrows right now because just as boehner is promising not to buckle on rates, he's purging four conservatives from committee. >> i was going to ask you about that. now, newt, and bob livingston tried that with mark newman back in '95. that didn't work out well for him. we said we're going to vote agai
. >> bob, you, yesterday, shadowed grover norquist for quite some time. you went to the meeting, his wednesday meeting. >> that's right. >> he has all the time with some of the most powerful conservatives in d.c. and across the country attending. what was their attitude about any deal that boehner might have to make? >> it's pretty interesting when you talk to house republicans because they look at boehner from two different perspectives. on one side, boehner went in...
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they've got to get through the rocky shoals of grover norquist. >> right. >> and all those folks. >> and you have to get through the rocky shoals of nancy pelosi when you start talking entitlements. >> you see democrats who are, i think, talking very realistically about what needs to be done. on entitlements, i think the question isn't whether we have to do something about medicare, it's how we do something about medicare. >> so wouldn't that be -- and maybe it's naive of me to even bring this up -- but wouldn't that be important for them to take on what those are together and shoulder to shoulder? >> what i remember last summer when the president said to boehner essentially, let's lock arms and jump off the, you know, at that point it was a different kind of cliff, together. it's going to require both leaders. each is going to have to make sacrifices. in order to get this done. and i think that, you know, i think everybody recognizes the consequences of not getting it done. >> so how do you tell republicans that won't support a tax increase unless they believe entitlement reform's c
they've got to get through the rocky shoals of grover norquist. >> right. >> and all those folks. >> and you have to get through the rocky shoals of nancy pelosi when you start talking entitlements. >> you see democrats who are, i think, talking very realistically about what needs to be done. on entitlements, i think the question isn't whether we have to do something about medicare, it's how we do something about medicare. >> so wouldn't that be -- and maybe it's...